Las Vegas Sands reports Q3 2025 EBITDA of $743 million, driven by strong performance in Singapore and strategic marketing shifts in Macau.

OPERATOR - (00:00:06)

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OPERATOR - (00:01:27)

Good day, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the Sands' third quarter 2025 earnings call. @ this time, all participants have been placed on a listen only mode. But we will open the floor for your questions and comments following the presentation. It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Daniel Briggs, senior vice president of investor relations at SANS. Sir, the floor is yours.

Daniel Briggs - Senior Vice President of Investor Relations - (00:01:47)

Thank you, Paul. Joining the call today are Rob Goldstein, chairman and CEO Patrick Dumont, our president and chief operating officer, Dr. Will Wong, executive Vice Chairman of Sands China and Grant Shan, CEO and President of China and EVP of our Asia operation. Today's conference call will contain forward looking statements. We will be making those statements under the Safe harbor provision of Federal securities law. The language on forward looking statements included in our press release also applies to our comments made on the call today. The company's actual results may differ materially from the results reflected in those forward looking statements. In addition, we'll discuss non GAAP measures. Reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP financial measure are included in our press release. We have posted an earnings presentation on our website. We will refer to that presentation during the call. Finally, for the Q and A session, we ask those with interest to please please post one question and one follow up question so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. Presentation is being recorded. I'll now turn the call over to Rob.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:02:53)

Thank you. Dan. Good afternoon. Thanks for joining us. Marina Bay Sands delivered EBITDA of $743 million. We had forecasted MBS could do $2.5 billion annually. It turns out we were too conservative. We should easily exceed that figure in 2025. MBS is currently over $2.1 billion of EBITDA this year with a quarter still to go. Mass gaming and slot win was a record $905 million, reflecting 122% growth from Q3 of 2019 and 35% higher than last year. We are in the right place at the right time with the right product. Singapore is a highly desirable destination and our product is superb. It's difficult to find superlatives that describe the magnitude of this result. Operating performance at MBS is unprecedented in the history of our industry. Macau delivered $601 million EBITDA for the quarter, which reflects improvement in our financial results. The typhoon negatively impacted our reported ebitda by about $20 million. We have underperformed in the Macau market for the past few years. We believe our buildings will be enough to compete favorably. We were wrong. We've adapted to the market and changed our approach in the second quarter of 2025 to enable us to be more competitive. Our mass market Revenue jumped to 25.4% this quarter, up from 23.6% in the first quarter of 2025. We expect additional share gains and EBITDA. Growth in the fourth quarter. Our assets remain the strongest in the Macao market. The Londoner is moving towards one plus billion dollars of EBITDA and we have meaningful opportunities for growth improvement throughout our Macau property portfolio. Importantly, the Macau markets GGR is growing. When you couple this back with our assets and our recent marketing changes, we believe we'll continue to improve in the fourth quarter and beyond.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:04:46)

Let's hear from Patrick Thanks Rob Macau EBITDA was 601 million. We had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by 2 million. When adjusted for a higher than expected hold in the rolling segment, our EBITDA margin in the Macau portfolio of properties would have been 31.5%, down 160 basis points compared to the third quarter of 2024. We are focused on delivering revenue and cash flow growth at the Londoner and across the portfolio. Margin at the Venetian was 35% while margin at the Londoner was 31.9%. We expect growth in EBITDA as revenues grow and as we use our scale and product advantages together with targeted incentives to better address every market segment. We see opportunity in every segment. Now Turning to Singapore, MBS's EBITDA for the quarter was 743 million at a margin of 51.7%. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by 43 million. With this quarter's results, we are putting in place a new methodology for the theoretical hold percentage on rolling Baccarat play for the the quarter. This new approach has been enabled by the introduction of smart tables on our Baccarat games in Singapore. This technology has now been in place at our rolling Bach Rock table at the Marina Bay sands for over one year. Please see slide 7 in the earnings materials for more detail. We have provided theoretical hold rates for rolling Baccarat play for the last five quarters at Marina Bay Sands. There will naturally be fluctuations of theoretical hold rate and in any specific quarter driven by player betting preferences. The record financial results of Marina Bay Sands reflect the impact of high quality investment in market leading product and the growth in high value tourism. We believe we are still in the initial stages of realizing the benefits of our investments in Renovate Sands. Turning to our program to return capital to shareholders, we repurchased 500 million of LBs stock during the quarter. We also paid our recurring quarterly dividend of $0.25 per share. Our Board of Directors has approved an increase in our quarterly dividend of 20% for the 2026 calendar year or $1.20 per share per year or $0.30 per share per quarter. In addition, during the third quarter and in July, we purchased 337 million of Sands China stock, increasing the company's ownership percentage of Sands China to 74.76% as of today, we believe repurchases of LDS equity to our share repurchase program will be meaningfully accretive to the company and its shareholders over the long term. We look forward to continuing to utilize the company's share repurchase program to increase returns to shareholders. Thanks again for joining the call today and let's take some questions.

OPERATOR - (00:07:29)

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, the floor is now open for questions. If you would like to enter the queue to ask a question, please press Star one on your telephone keypad. Now, if listening on speakerphone today, please pick up your handset to provide optimum sound quality. Also, we ask each participant to limit yourselves to one question and one follow up. Please hold a moment while we poll for questions. And the first question today is coming from Dan Pulitzer from J.P. morgan. Dan, your line is live.

Dan Pulitzer - Equity Analyst at J.P. Morgan - (00:08:01)

Hey, good afternoon everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. So first, Singapore, I want to go back to the hold rate. Back to the hold rate. Obviously you guys raised it to the 4.2% for VIP. Is there any impetus or desire or potential to raise the mass hold? Because that one's been going up too. So I guess one, is that directionally similar in terms of the benefit that you're seeing from the smart tables and two, is that something you would ever give, you know, a hold range for? Yeah, I think right now what you're seeing is a rollout onto the floor where we can get accurate rolling table data. So we're not there yet to give you data on the mass floor. Because remember,, it's a mix of games, so so it's not just baccarat. So I think that's an important point to note. And the other thing is we don't really normalize mass hold because of the volume of play, the bet size and getting to the, you know, let's call it the theoretical. So for us it's much more meaningful to deal with the rolling program because of the volatility of the hold in that segment. Got it. That makes sense. And then just turning to Macau, this is more of a high level one. London does seem like it's turned the corner. You guys have been marketing broadly across the portfolio there. Can you kind of talk about that path back to 2.7, 2.8 billion of EBITDA that you kind of laid out as maybe a soft target last quarter? How are you pacing, you know, in terms of getting back there? You know, would you say that you need the market to kind of pick up from here to get there or can you kind of do this independent of the market health?

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:09:31)

I would say, Dan, you can't do it independent market. You need market growth, which you're experiencing thankfully in Macau. The overall markets, you know, could be next year, 33, 34 billion dollars. We need, everyone needs market growth to make Macau numbers work better. But we also had to make changes. We've been making those changes the last, I don't know, four or five months and adapt to the market which has. We did not participate and we are now participating. Probably we're halfway there, the other half to go. But I think when you marry the market growth to our assets to our new marketing programs, yes, we can get to our target. But critical to the market growth, that's essential for all of us. Otherwise just the same customers are circulating. But you're seeing we're come off the bottom here. We're growing, we're getting better. Probably 620 is the right number. If you take out the typhoon, it's a respectable quarter. It's not our goal. Our goal, as you know, is to get to 272 8. We're not there yet. I think we're making progress and we keep putting down the team has to stay in sync with the market, deliver those results. Grant?

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:10:36)

Yeah, I think this quarter what we saw was, I think some of our reinvestment programs coming to fruition in terms of productivity across London are. Yes, because this, this is the first quarter we've had the full deployment of the Londoner grant rooms and suites. And on the product side that definitely helped us. And then to Rob's point, in terms of marketing strategies responding to the market dynamics, we've obviously adjusted our reinvestment rates across the portfolio. Not uniformly. Obviously some of our smaller properties have had a bigger boost in our reinvestment ratios, as you can see. And we're seeing the Results of that, you can see that both year on year and sequentially, we are outgrowing the market for the first time in a long time. When you look at the Mass gtr.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:11:26)

I think, you know, weak links in our portfolio in Parisian and Sands, especially Parisians, come way off the highs. And about 50% of it's what used to be in terms of EBITDA performance. I think we have a lot of value in that property. London, as you referenced, is fine. Venetian is okay. And I just think we've got to come off the bottom in sans, get that back to being competitive. But, you know, it's underway, it's progressing. It just takes a lot of work.

Dan Pulitzer - Equity Analyst at J.P. Morgan - (00:11:52)

And a lot of focus. Got it. Thanks so much and congrats on the nice quarter.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:11:57)

Thank you.

OPERATOR - (00:11:59)

Thank you. The next question is coming from Sean Kelly from Bank of America. Sean, your line is live.

Sean Kelly - Equity Analyst at Bank of America - (00:12:05)

Hi, good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for taking my questions to everyone wants to take it. I want to go back to Singapore because the smart table initiative is super interesting. Can we just unpack a little bit though about like, what's the underlying betting behavior or change that would sort of be driving such a material increase? I mean, obviously on your numerator, you know, this type of change in hold would suggest some sort of underlying behavioral change or mix change. So is it mix of betters, you know, and maybe getting more casual better, or is it a mix in again, what is know what games or in what bets they're making? Because I mean, historically we think of baccarat in particular as being extremely simple player banker. So how is the smart table piece evolving in a way that we're seeing an actual underlying change in behavior.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:12:55)

Thanks. Sure. Just to be clear, the smart table is just the scorekeepers, the umpire, referee. It doesn't make this stuff happen. What makes it happen is, as you alluded to historically, Bakrust and 285. You know, when I began this industry, Baccarat was a boring game. Sub 3 whole percentage game. There was no juice in it. And it stayed that way for decades. What's changed in Bakra is not the smart tables. That's the score key. What's changed is the game itself offers a lot more opportunities to gamble different ways. It's analogous to sports betting and the side bets and sports betting, the prop bets, the side bets, the honestly, the low percentage bets for the customer play in your favor. And that's. This is simply mathematics. This isn't casual betters. This isn't this game better. This just means everybody gravitating towards side bets, their house advantage. And that's what's happening here. I don't think we tell you it's 4.1 or 4.2. That's what the smart tables tell us. The scorekeepers said hey, these guys are making these bets and that results in this result. It has. The game as you alluded to has changed dramatically from the old days was kind of a stay game. It's a very interesting email. Lots of opportunities to lose your money different ways and people, especially in Singapore, we're seeing all levels, not just casual but seasoned pros seem to want to bet these side bets and it's become very powerful. And in a company like ours which is baccarat dependent, it's a powerful driver of revenue and EBITDA flow through. So what you're seeing in Singapore is simply not the smart table helping us, but the gain deviations have helped us and the customers willing to bet those deviations has driven this thing to 4 plus percent which is astounding when you think back to what used to be a very boring 2.85 gain for years. But that's a simple factor. This isn't an anomaly, it's just the way the market's proceeding. I think you'll see it happen Macau as well. And for this company it's a massive, massive change in the opportunity to make more money.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:14:52)

I think you have to give credit to our gaming innovation team for their willingness to really look at the customer experience and add the opportunity to enhance that experience through some higher volatility bets which the customers are actually using. And it's their preference they could choose not to use them but they seem to be very popular. They create a better gaming experience and better enjoyment in the game. And so we're very fortunate that our team continues to innovate and, and try these things and you know, the market has received them quite well. And so I think the smart table system has helped us measure these bets better. But it's a practical matter, it's just as Rob said, it's, it's about having the bets on the table and having the customers enjoy using.

Sean Kelly - Equity Analyst at Bank of America - (00:15:34)

Very clear. Thanks. And Rob, you kind of went where I was going to take it, which I think is the next logical place which is the ability to expand these types of bets or these types, this type of table to, you know, other markets. Obviously Macao being the big opportunity. So can you just see talk a little bit about either where you're at and rolling that out, what segments. I mean I would assume given that Sort of the junket based VIP business is no longer a thing there. But perhaps in house VIP or premium Mass would have some real opportunities. So where are you at? What ending are you in? And then just maybe super high level. Is this technology? Are these bets, are these proprietary to you all? I mean I know there's kind of open secrets in gaming but I mean you are developing these in house. There's not like a third party that's kind of brought these to you from a sort of just pure optionality perspective.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:16:23)

Yeah, we probably were the initiators as much as a decade ago. We started this process with someone, we grew that team. The team is now expanded. So we were the initiative. We're not though it's not proprietary. We can't, we don't have control. People can copy these bets, they are copying these bets which by the way doesn't. It shouldn't be a problem. It's good for the industry to grow. Yes, we're moving towards this from the cal. Yes, the smart table system will be there as well as a scorekeeper. And so as Macau market has more opportunity, you're seeing it happen already. I think you'll see the percents go up there as well. It's been more advantageous thus far in Singapore but we are moving into Macau as is the Macau market. You go look at the layouts now, they're fraught with side bets all over the place. In fact some of the times you can't find the flatbed so busy with alternatives. But yeah, it's moving in that direction. Macau, no, it's not proprietary. Yes, we did develop it. I think we've initiators but. And again the confusion is sometimes people think it's a smart table which is not true at all. The smart tables gives you a better measurement. Stick to know how many bets are making on the side and what that means. The mathematics and I think what Patrick's alluding to the 4:1 or 4:2 is we have good evidence that these are. This is not a, you know, a guess anymore. Gee, it should be this. For years we wrestle with what's the correct hold percentage. There is no correct hold. Depends on that quarter. But those people bet we can have a quarter that comes in at 5:1 or come at 3:8. Depends on what the players at the table bet at that time. And every bet is calculated. So yes, it's going to move towards Macau and I think it's very helpful not just for this company but others to make the gaming more interesting, more diversified and I Don't think it's tied to the high end. By the way, mass customers love it too. Small betters, large bettors, you bet the sportsbook, the biggest prop bettors, the small guys. The guys are betting $100 a game. They love betting. Props. And I think BAKRAD is similar to sports betting.

Sean Kelly - Equity Analyst at Bank of America - (00:18:16)

That regard completely get it. Thank you both.

OPERATOR - (00:18:21)

Thank you. The next question is coming from Stephen Grambling from Morgan Stanley. Stephen, you're lined at live.

Stephen Grambling - Equity Analyst at Morgan Stanley - (00:18:27)

Hey, thank you. So you've upped the dividend for next year and you keep the pedal down. On buyback at the same time you. Had the disclosure around. Capex is coming down as well over. The next few years. One thing you didn't touch on, I. Guess that you talked about in the. Past is just maybe a willingness to, you know, buy back some of the. Shares in Hong Kong as well.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:18:50)

So love any thoughts you have there or other capital allocation opportunities. So I think the best thing is we are a capital allocation story and a return of capital story. You know, you look at the company's history, we've been very shareholder friendly. We allocate capital with growth in mind. So we invest for high returns. But when those high return investment opportunities aren't available, we return the capital and we try to do it through dividends in a prudent manner and through share repurchases. And so I think that's where you're seeing us today. We did buy back SEL last little while. If you kind of see where we're at, we're basically at getting close to the limit where it's 74.76% I think the number is. And you know, we can't really go past 75. So I think for us right now we're kind of where we are at sel. But our goal is to continue to return capital both at SEL and at the parent code, a friendly way for shareholders. And so you'll see us continue to do that. Makes sense. And maybe changing gears a little bit. Just going back to Macau.

Stephen Grambling - Equity Analyst at Morgan Stanley - (00:19:50)

Would love any further color you could, you know, provide on kind of characterizing. The strength that we've seen in vip. I mean, it's been been quite a. While since we've seen this level of growth. Is that really just more semantics around. Where customers are preferring to bet or. Is that a new customer who's coming in?

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:20:12)

Stephen, let me take that. Yes, I think the VIP has outgrown the mass GGR over the last few months. In some cases, some months it's been very high Rates of growth, I think it is driven by some concentration of super high end VIP players as well as increased liquidity in the market. This quarter we haven't participated as much in that segment but we are going to be getting more competitive in that segment as well. And of course we have introduced re entered the junket market this quarter. Of course, of course the growth of that segment in the past few months has also driven the rolling market. But at this point it still remains a low margin segment which typically is going to stay around 12 to 15% of the overall GGR. But we're also focused on growing that segment. But obviously the bulk of the profit growth is going to come from the non rolling. Helpful.

Stephen Grambling - Equity Analyst at Morgan Stanley - (00:21:13)

Thank you.

OPERATOR - (00:21:16)

Thank you. The next question will be from Brandt Montour from Barclays. Brandt, your line is live.

Brandt Montour - (00:21:22)

Hey everybody, thanks for taking my question. I just want to double click on that on that comment. I mean you know, I think that you know we all kind of see the premium mass led, you know, inflection since mid year. But it sounds like, I mean even looking in your slides, base, base mass. Per table was up nicely. And so I guess Rob, for you the question is that for the market to grow what you need the market to grow 33, 34. When you think about that growth, does that require a broadening out of the depth and breadth of base mass and are you seeing early signs of that inflection for that particular cohort?

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:22:01)

I think it's impossible to say where it comes from, I'll be honest. The junket, the rolling, the non rolling, the mass, it's very hard to define. I think what's important to see is happening. I mean the market looks to me like it's. We don't October comes in, I'd say It comes in 7, 8, 9% year on year. But it feels like there's a stronger trend over there. Macau is recovering in different segments. Obviously we like a base mass recovery, but there's nothing on premium mass. I don't have real insight to where. It could come from. I just hope it comes because I think the key thing for all Macau, for all the operators for profitability and growth is to see this GGR acceleration grant. Maybe you see it differently.

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:22:38)

I think that's right and it is obviously helpful especially to us if the base mass grows faster because of our advantage in that segment. But also the margin structure in that segment is very favorable. I think if you look at this quarter, you're right. Year on year our base mass actually grew 18%. But part of that Reflects the fact that a prior year we had the closure of the Pacifica Casino, which is now the London Grand Casino. If you look at sequentially premium mass, we still grew faster than base mass, 11% versus 7%. But yes, I think the summer was positive for base mass. But again, I would characterize the bulk of the growth in this market, even in a non rolling is still dominated by the upper tiers of the value segments.

Brandt Montour - (00:23:31)

Okay, thanks for that. Just a quick question on Singapore. Obviously really strong results in the third quarter at MBS and that was without the F1 race, which usually falls in September. It fell in October this year. So you didn't have that in the third quarter of magnitude or how should we think about how impactful that event is that sort of has now moved into the fourth quarter for you now this year. First off, it's a great event and it's a great event globally and it's one of the most important F1 events and it's phenomenally attended and it really helps Singapore and we're actually really supportive of it. It involved in its presentation. So we're very happy about that. As a practical matter, you can see the demand of Marina Bay Sands as a product and that even with F1 in a different part of the calendar year, we continue to perform through that. So I think F1 is helpful. Something that we really enjoy having in Singapore. It's great for visitation. It increases the prestige of Singapore by having such a prominent race there. It drives a lot of high value visitation, much of which ends up at Marina Bay Sands. So we're very happy about it. But where it falls in the calendar is okay. We're fine.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:24:41)

I gotta say that the last couple years we've had all these people pointing to F1 or Taylor Swift or I don't know, I don't think it matters all that much. I think Singapore has taken a whole new. We can't figure out just how high is up. This thing just keeps getting stronger and stronger. And the reason to me is very simple. It's the most favorable location, a lot of people, high net worth to come to. Whether F1's there or Taylor Swift's there or whoever's there that week. I think the place, the building is extraordinary. The place is extraordinary and the events certainly move the customers around. In the end, Singapore is the driver. That place is just well attended, well visited, very desirable and it's become the place to go to in Asia for people who want to gamble at a certain level. And I think that's really the real driver is the unique asset we built, unique room product and the gambling we provide there. The opportunity to gamble what you want, how you want. So as much I respect F1, I respect Taylor Swift, I respect all these drivers. I think Singapore has just gone to a whole new place. And you see these numbers. I thought we were ambitious at 2.5. We probably this year get to, I don't know, 2.7, 2.8, 2 9. I don't know it gets to. But the numbers are there and it just seems like it's getting more and more desirable for the high ends of the market. So extraordinary results. I think no one could have seen these kind of growth and I don't think it's that tied to special events as much as tied to the place itself.

Brandt Montour - (00:26:05)

Great. Thanks, everybody.

OPERATOR - (00:26:08)

Thank you. The next question is coming from Robin Farley from ubs. Robin, your line is live.

Robin Farley - (00:26:16)

Great, thanks. Just going back to your comments about kind of what you hope to achieve in market share and premium mas. I know you talked about, you know, upgrading a Londoner would kind of give you the assets to do that. You said something earlier in the call about how you're kind of only halfway there with what you hope to do or plan to do there. Can you talk a little bit about what other steps that you'll be taking and sort of what timing when you think about that? Thanks.

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:26:47)

Hi, Robin. Let me take that. Yes, I think when you look at the progression in market share, clearly we come off the bottom in Q1 when we're down at 23.5, 23.6. Now we're two points above that, which is great. But as Rob said, I think we're only halfway through if that. We started tweaking our programs and changing our marketing programs in the middle of the second quarter and that ramped up throughout each month in the third quarter. And you can see we were improving month on month within the quarter. But I think it's important that we're also considering how each segment has different requirements. So we are marrying the tactical incentives with the product advantage that we have. So in a Londoner that you can see it very clearly what we're doing. Not just Londoner grand, which is nearly open, but also leveraging the other side of Londoner on the super high end. And we're seeing good results there, I think in the smaller properties, we have adjusted marketing programs, but also reset our distribution team as well in terms of composition and the number of people. So we should be seeing better results from the distribution side over the Next two to three quarters. Because so far what we've benefited most from is I think the launch of Londoner Grand Married with these customer reinvestment adjustments. But I think there's still a lot to be done. But we're confident that we're going to be progressing month by month, quarter by quarter.

Robin Farley - (00:28:36)

Great, thanks. And maybe just as one follow up on a different topic, I don't know if we've heard your thoughts too recently on any potential opportunity in the UAE where there may be other licenses to give out. Is that something that LVS is interested in and kind of actively engage with?

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:28:59)

Thanks, I really appreciate the question. So we're always looking at opportunities to deploy capital and grow our business and I think you've seen us be very disciplined and be very patient. The UAE is a tremendous tourism market. There's been billions of dollars of investment in the UAE to create tremendous tourism infrastructure. Some of the best hospitality and food and beverage products in the world are located there and it's a lot of fun to visit. That being said, it's not a market we're looking at this time, but we're following it.

Robin Farley - (00:29:31)

Okay, great, thank you.

OPERATOR - (00:29:36)

Thank you. The next question is coming from Lizzy Dove from Goldman Sachs. Lizzie, your line is live.

Lizzy Dove - Equity Analyst at Goldman Sachs - (00:29:42)

Hi, thanks for taking the question. So clearly, you know, incredible results in Singapore again. And you mentioned, you know, for this year, 27, 28, 29, who knows, you know, it feels like it's four based, like you said, not tied to one event. But how should we think about the long term? Like is this sustainable? Can it on a whole adjusted basis grow next year? Like how are you thinking about the kind of longer tail of this sustainability growth in Singapore?

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:30:06)

Well, Lizzie, I'd say we've been wrong all along. For starters, we've under forecasted this thing. We thought we were very ambitious at 2.5 and like I said, we're 2.1plus currently with quarter to go. With a big quarter you could do 282829. So is it sustainable? Hell yes, it's very sustainable. You're alone over there and you got one competitor, which is which, you know, just it's a duopoly. It's a market that has, you know, tremendous support from the government. And if you've been in the building, it's incredibly well done. I think the team did a great job of building out a one of a kind asset. So yeah, it's very sustainable. The question I can't answer is does it get to 3 next year? 32 down the road does it get to. I don't know. We've been wrong all along. Here we are in 2025. Had you said two years ago you're delivering $700 million quarters back to back, I would have said that's very ambitious. Well, it turns out it was done easily. These last quarters came along pretty well. And so I don't think anyone should question the longevity and sustainability of Singapore. If anything. What I can't figure out is how deep is the well. And I've been wrong and I'm pretty aggressive by nature in forecasting demand over there. Slot win is going to break a billion dollars. Looks like these table wins are extraordinary. It's coming at us from all sides. I think shrinking the building, having all suites versus mostly more rooms is a very good idea. So, yeah, I think it's very sustainable. And the question for me is not sustainability is how high is up. Could this thing hit $3 billion? Get the three, two? I don't know. But I didn't think you'd go from what we used to be a $1.6 billion asset pre Covid to now looks like a $2.78 billion asset post Covid. So it's hard to forecast something that feels so powerful and right now feels to me like it's got more growth to go.

Lizzy Dove - Equity Analyst at Goldman Sachs - (00:31:56)

Definitely, definitely. I guess on that subject, you know, just one event, but making it bigger picture, I guess. On Golden Week, it looked like there was a lot of outbound visitation from China into Singapore. It was up a lot year on year. And so curious what you're seeing really, even just beyond Golden Week of just any changes in visitation trends and whether you are, you know, versus Macao, seeing that kind of high end, higher end Chinese customer visiting to Singapore at the expense of Macau and whether you think that might continue.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:32:27)

Yeah, we're not, we're not really getting into current quarter, but just overall, Macau and Singapore are very separate markets and typically the catchment area for Singapore is very focused on Southeast Asia and Macau is primarily Hong Kong and China. So different businesses, different tourism base, different assets. But we'll talk about this quarter on the next earnings call.

Lizzy Dove - Equity Analyst at Goldman Sachs - (00:32:53)

Got it. Thank you.

OPERATOR - (00:32:56)

Thank you. The next question is coming from Joe Stauff from Susquehanna. Joe, your line is live.

Joe Stauff - Equity Analyst at Susquehanna - (00:33:01)

Okay, thanks. Good afternoon, Rob. Patrick. Just wanted to follow up, Patrick, on your comment about, hey, the opportunity in Singapore in particular is still essentially in the early innings, obviously maybe an expansion of other questions. I wondered if you could just maybe talk about the second and third quarter, the strength of the volumes, maybe the things that you learned that surprised you. And then as we think about the opportunity set going forward, I understand it's hard to put a number to it, but maybe some of the bigger layers of opportunity, is it, is it a strategy such that you'd expect to get a higher level of average spend? Is it geographical reach? Are there any puzzle pieces you can give us from that perspective?

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:33:58)

There's a lot there in this question, so bear with me. I'm going to try to get through it all. I think the first thing is the way we got to Singapore today and its performance was very deliberate and it started probably five years ago. We first started charting out where we wanted to go with the asset, given where we thought the direction of growth and high value tourism would be. And we start off by building a great customer experience by focusing on the physical asset, which took time to both design and then ultimately implement. We redesigned our service, our service teams that we could better service our customers in a more complete way. And that was also a big lift. We focused a lot on how we sold, how we attracted customers by developing larger and more geographically spread out marketing teams and sales teams and all that come together with a very strong management group over time with lots of investment produced this result. So this was not something that happened overnight. It was planned, it was a strategic decision. It was investment over many years in both human capital and physical capital, along with the philosophy with a service focus and a customer experience focus. We focus on a lot of different amenities, how we enhance our entertainment, how we enhance our retail mall, how we enhance our food and beverage, and how we bring it all together so that gaming customers can come in and get a lifestyle experience that can't be replicated anyplace else. And so for us that was really key. So the question is, how do we. Grow the business more? Well, first off, I think people are just getting to know the new marina based ants. Remember, the renovation has not been done for that long. So we have a lot of customers who maybe experienced Marina Bay Sands a decade ago and are now surprised by what's on offer today. I think the other thing is the quality of tourists that is coming to Singapore is continuing to elevate. There are also a lot of people who are engaging in commerce out of Singapore and that's growing. So we have a lot of people on the leisure and on the business tourism side that are experiencing Marina Bay Sands and it's only growing. I think segments that we look to in the future continue to bring high value tourists in from different parts of the catchment area and we're working on that. And to be fair, at some point we're going to run out of capacity and that's where IR2 comes in. Someone asked us earlier about how we feel about the sustainability of Singapore as a market for us and I think the biggest statement is that we're investing $8 billion to continue to grow our presence there. That to me is the biggest signal that we're very serious about long term investment and the success of Singapore. But I think for us it's going to come from continue to attract high value tourists, continue to bring in high value business and leisure tourism activities, great entertainment, great retail, continuing to lead in amenities. The investments that are necessary to stay at the forefront of tourism and attract high value tourists from different markets and we'll continue to grow. That was the strategy and we're executing it now.

Joe Stauff - Equity Analyst at Susquehanna - (00:36:48)

Thank you for that. Maybe just a quick clarification, you know, earlier in response to a question on smart table deployment, you know, for the mass tables and games area of Singapore. Are you six months, are you nine months behind? You know, kind of the process that you went through with the rolling tables?

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:37:11)

It's not that we're behind, it's that we have it on some games and not on others. Remember, our casino floor has Bachelor rod has Sick bow has a bunch of other different gaming products that are there actually including crafts. Like we've got different types of games out on the floor and so not all those games are ready for this digital table system. So over time we'll get there. But remember, we make most of our money from baccarat and the area with the most volatility was the rolling programs. And so we started there. Understood.

Joe Stauff - Equity Analyst at Susquehanna - (00:37:45)

Thanks very much. Great quarter. Thank you.

OPERATOR - (00:37:49)

Thank you. The next question is coming from Chad Baynham from Macquarie. Chad, your line is live.

Chad Baynham - Equity Analyst at Macquarie - (00:37:55)

Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Just wanted to revisit the comments around reinvestment program. You guys have been very open and honest in terms of your strategy and your competitors strategy in the market. I guess year to date in your decision to change that. Have you seen any change with those competitors that maybe are now on a level playing field from a reinvestment strategy and maybe they don't have the product or the service that you guys have and they could potentially step outside of the current zip code of what's being provided to players or does it remain pretty rational? Thank you.

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:38:35)

Yeah, let me take that. I think in general the competition remains intense and we don't foresee that to slow down. I Think what you see is basically constant action and reaction and we have to stay very alert to those changes, which we are. And like what Rob said, we're going to be laser focused on basically responding to the market with the right office. And I think you can see the benefit of that change in our marketing strategy over this quarter and that will continue. As to what other people are going to do and how they will respond, I think that's just an evolving picture that we have to monitor. And you would expect that the market to continue to be very competitive. But the positive aspect of the market is that we are seeing GGR growth and I think that helps all of us, but it will stay competitive and we're very committed to staying ultra competitive here.

Chad Baynham - Equity Analyst at Macquarie - (00:39:48)

Thank you. And then, Patrick, I know the digital gaming business, I guess the doors have been open or slightly open for the past couple of years, made many moves, but now you're officially closing that door, those windows. So why now? And then any cost saves that we should think about for our models?

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:40:07)

Thank you. Yeah, I think we looked at this for a couple of years. I think we just didn't feel like it was something that we felt would be a good use of shareholder capital. So we shut it down. In terms of cost save, I think it's just things that will come out of development expense that you would have seen in the last year, but that's out now. It wasn't. It wasn't super material.

Chad Baynham - Equity Analyst at Macquarie - (00:40:29)

Thank you very much. Thanks, Jeff.

OPERATOR - (00:40:33)

Thank you. The next question will be from George Choi from Citigroup. George, your line is live.

George Choi - Equity Analyst at Citigroup - (00:40:44)

George, good morning. Hi, George. Please check. Go ahead. Yes, sorry, I was on mute. So obviously the encouraging whole rate disclosure in Singapore, very, very solid. But I'm just wondering, when will you do the same thing in Macau? Is there any significant difference in terms of the player behavior on how much they wager on the side bets that make a difference between how you do it in Singapore versus Macau?

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:41:24)

One thing to note, that our rolling volumes are much larger relative to our overall gaming win in Singapore. And so there was a real focus there to begin with that. Also the number of tables are smaller in Singapore than they are in Macau. So I just want to highlight that. But I'll turn it over to Grant to respond to the rest of the question.

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:41:43)

Yeah, George, just to reiterate the distinction Rob made, that the smart technology, it helps us to understand what is happening at the table. Independent of that is the player propensity. It's not one leading the other. So I think on the question of propensity to wager in the side wages in Macau. It is. The mix is obviously smaller than in Singapore, but it's also rising and it has contributed to enhanced house edge over over the past several years. And as you of all of the people here, you are visiting all these casinos and you can see the layouts are being reinvented every few months with additional side wages. So that's on the side wages. In terms of the smart tables, we in Macau have actually fully rolled out on the non rolling background tables, all of the smart table technology and we are in the process of completing the rollout in the rolling segment. So within the next few months we should be able to gauge across the total backrep table pool.

George Choi - Equity Analyst at Citigroup - (00:43:03)

Thanks very much. As a follow up, now that we have a myriad of cybereds at the background tables in both Singapore and Macau, I'm just wondering how do you strike a balance between improving the incremental excitement and experience for players from, you know, obviously these new side bets versus any potential cannibalization amongst the various side bets.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:43:30)

Well, I think the great thing about it is all the original bets are there. So if you. All the bets that people are used to are still on the fels. This is really just up to the player. It's just an option. It just gives them some additional volatility if they want to take it. So for us it's really a player decision. And in some cases they take it, in some cases they don't. Which is the reason why Robin's remarks said in Singapore, you may see a quarter where we hold five or you see a quarter where we hold high threes. It just depends on propensity and the preference of the player to want to make that wager. But as a practical matter, the game just has more options. But it doesn't foreclose the ability for them to bet in a more traditional manner.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:44:07)

You want a flatbed, you can flat bet all day long. Player, tie pair. It doesn't exclude those bets. It's just like it's no different for years than the Super Bowl. For years people thought there was something different about the Super Bowl. All it was was they offered 2,000 side bets versus the usual bet, the packers and the Bears. All we've done here is extract expand the side bets. But the usual bets are still there, traditional bets. People want to bet so it's their decision whether to make that decision on what to bet. It's not ours. We don't dictate it.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:44:38)

I think the important thing here to Remember, is that we are iterative in the way that we apply new bets on the felt. So what you see today is after attempts to improve the game experience for people, we're very focused on the experience. So if players like it, that's great and we keep it out there and they use it. And if it makes their trip more enjoyable, that's fantastic. If it's not something that's preferred by the players, eventually it evolves itself out of the game. And we've had a lot of different iterations of what's on the felt. So I would just view this as an enhancement to the gaming experience mechanism. And so they enjoy the volatility, they enjoy the additional bets, and so they use them. But you know, as to, as to how those bets will progress over time, Players preferences may change over time. You may see us have different side bets on the field over time as players change what they want to do.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:45:27)

That's a very important point. Like a supermarket, we keep putting these on the shelves that sell and don't sell. We're constantly coming up with new bets all the time. We have a very important committee called the Make More Money committee. That's job is to find all new bets and deviations that this thing. And if things don't sell, we take it off the table and put something else to try it out. It's evolving all the time. It's not a static function. Thank you very much, George.

George Choi - Equity Analyst at Citigroup - (00:45:54)

Thanks, George.

OPERATOR - (00:45:56)

Thank you. The next question will be from David Katz from Jefferies. David, your line is live.

David Katz - Equity Analyst at Jefferies - (00:46:03)

Afternoon everybody. Thanks for taking my question with respect to Macau. You know, one of the topics of. Conversation and one of the things that we're tracking very carefully is, you know, events, whether they're, you know, concerts or otherwise. Can you talk to us about your strategy around those? And more specifically, you know, the recent, you know, I know it's. It's sort of maybe post the end of the quarter, but I'd love to hear any general comments, learnings, you know, opportunities, etc. Around the NBA games that were hosted and events in general.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:46:39)

Thanks. So I think first off, you know, going back to early days of the Venetian with Rob, you know, entertainment has always been front center. And I think it's something that's always helped us in the gaming business and the perception of the excitement around our properties. We've always been focused on providing high quality entertainment and actually building the assets to support it. You know, many years ago, our SCL built the first arena in Macau for this very reason. And we've been very dedicated to programming it and creating entertainment that's been very successful over the years in creating opportunities for our patrons to have a great experience. And I think you'll see that as well. In Singapore, we broke ground in mid July on what we're calling IR2 right now. Eventually we'll have a name and we're building a 15,000 seat live performance venue there that will be the most technologically advanced arena in Asia and provide a great customer experience for live performance. And we're always very focused on it. And so for us, I think it's a very important benefit for our company to have that excitement that goes along with entertainment, but also gives our patients something to experience in the environment as part of the lifestyle that we provide to them. In terms of the mba, this was something we started working on many years ago. We're very fortunate. The MBA is a great partner. They really pulled out all the stops. They were very supportive. I have to give credit to both the Brooklyn Nets and the Phoenix Suns for the support that they gave to the China Games. They really showed up in force and their teams at a lot of charity events in the local community. They were great with the fans. Really just an unbelievable experience. And. Our team was very excited because the reaction in Macau was very strong. I think just some of the goals we set out for this event was to create something that brought a unique form of entertainment to highlight Macau and to showcase the investment that we've made and how high quality Macau is as a global tourism destination. And I think that goal was achieved. I think the media coverage, the social media into China, the social media externally around the globe has been very positive. I think the teams played very competitively. I think it was a great format for the league. And so I think that benefits Sands China because of that collaboration. I think it created a lot of excitement for our patrons when they actually came to the games. And there was just outstanding visitation and there was just a heightened sense of visitation around the business in terms of the impact. Again, we'll talk about at the end of this quarter, we'll have better data, but I think overall it was a very strong success. We're very happy with the results. I think our fans, fans of the NBA were very happy. I think we did a lot of things that helped the local community, which was also a benefit. And then lastly, we think it was very beneficial for Sands China on a lot of different levels. I think the marketing value that's created for us was also very strong. So a lot of benefit to it. And I also think we accomplished some of the goals that we set out in our concessional renewal, which was to bring, let's call it high value sports, global sports to Macau, which I think we did very successfully. A lot of positive things all around. I don't know. Grant, do you have any other comments or anything you'd like to add?

Grant Shan - CEO and President of China and EDP of Asia Operation - (00:49:47)

No, I think covers it very well. I think it did showcase Macau in a very, very favorable light. It was great for the city to have such a, I would say, strong visitation from different countries. As you know, the government has been very keen on pushing us to have international events drawing visitors from different countries around the region, but in the rest of the world. And I think this event really highlighted the attraction of Macau as an international tourism destination, like Patrick said. And I think we're proud of delivering this first set of China Games for Macau. And I think we got a lot of positive praise, not just from the people who came from different corners of the world, but also very positive feedback.

David Katz - Equity Analyst at Jefferies - (00:50:43)

From the local community. Okay, thank you for all that. Appreciate it.

OPERATOR - (00:50:52)

Thank you. The next question will be from John Decree from cbre. John, your line is live.

John Decree - Equity Analyst at CBRE - (00:50:58)

Hey guys, thanks for all the color and commentary so far. Wanted to ask a follow up on. Kind of more of a strategic priorities outlined in your deck development. I know you gave some comments about. The UAE specifically, but, you know, curious. What you're seeing around the globe, if there's anything particularly interesting right now. And I guess I'd specifically ask about Japan. You just obviously looked at that in the past.

Patrick Dumont - President and Chief Operating Officer - (00:51:23)

Is new prime Minister I think historically supportive of ir. So curious if it's worth another look at Japan and anything else that might be out there right now that's garnering your attention. Look, I think our strategic priority is to deploy capital in high growth projects. And we're always looking at those opportunities and always evaluating them to see if the returns are there with the appropriate factor of safety. And I think for us, as I said before, we're looking at the uae, trying to observe it and follow it. You know, obviously Japan was something we were very interested in the past, although that seems unlikely. There's been talk about Thailand, which is something that we've expressed interest in the past. So we're very patient and we're constantly looking and we'll see what opportunities arise. But as of right now, there's nothing really to report. Dex, Patrick, that's all for me. I appreciate it, guys.

OPERATOR - (00:52:20)

Thank you. And the next question will be from Steve Wyczynski from Stifel Steve, you line this up.

Steve Wyczynski - Equity Analyst at Stifel - (00:52:26)

Hey, guys. Good afternoon. So, Patrick, I apologize if I missed this in your prepared remarks, but if we think about the 150 basis point decrease in your Macao margins, wondering if most of that was tied pretty much directly to your change in marketing strategy or if that was just something else. Yeah, I think it was a combination of marketing strategy and a little bit higher cost. But I think the key thing for us is the way we get operating leverage and increase margin over time is by growing revenue. You know, you said it all along. I think there was a question earlier that Rob answered about the size of the Macao market. If you look at the Macau market today, it's growing. It's growing both in the mass segment and the VIP segment, which is very beneficial. I think we're very positive on the Macau market overall. The way we're going to grow EBITDA and grow margin, it's good revenue growth. We have a great team there, but we have a fixed cost basis, so we need to leverage it. We need to get more volume. Okay, gotcha. And then, Rob, second question. If we go back to Singapore real quick, you know, I mean, you're at. The point where you're pushing Almost, you. Know, $1,000 a night per room and, you know, yes, look, I understand there's more room capacity coming on. Yeah, I know, I understand there's, there's more, there's more room capacity coming online in the next couple of years. But, you know, this is probably a little bit of a higher level question, but wondering, you know, Rob, how you're thinking about room rates not only, you know, maybe now and your ability to still take price there, but, you know, maybe how you're thinking about room rates once your additional capacity comes online.

Rob Goldstein - Chairman and CEO - (00:54:01)

I think it's kind of relevant, to be honest with you. Our goal is to not sell rooms, just give away. People gamble. Because, very honest, that business we're in, you can't spend the kind of money we spend in Singapore and charge. If you charge $1,000 or $2,000 last time I checked, they're not building $8 billion hotels anywhere. This is a gambling casino with a hotel attached to it. So our goal in Singapore every night, if it can, is to give these rooms away to people, high value gaming customers who drive 3, 4, 5 billion dollars of top line revenue. That's the business we're over there. To be honest, I don't think we could squeeze the rates higher. I think we want to and the cash, but such a small offering, but mostly it compounds today day but the real goal is to not sell any rooms in IR1 or 2 but give them what a high value gaming customer drive that's how you don't make $3 billion annualized with hotels it's just that simple so it's a it's a very interesting dynamic over there we shrunk the hotel it's working very well it's attracting the high value casino customers that is the focus not the ADR to be blunt with you I think we fail we sold it for a $2,000 but a failure we're not in the rooms business we're in the casino hotel business and those rooms simply are there to attract those patients that drive these ridiculously high ebitdas but come visit we'll give you a free room no free room okay thanks guys appreciate it appreciate it.

OPERATOR - (00:55:24)

Thank you ladies and gentlemen this does conclude today's conference call you may disconnect your phone lines at the time and have a wonderful day we thank you for your participation.